In this, the second part of my interview with Brian McLaren, we discuss some of the ideas expressed in Brian's book, Everything Must Change, as well as some of the helpful and hopeful conversations that have arisen since then - both during Brian's recent Everything Must Change tour, as well as in cooperative action groups from all around the world.
(FOR PART 1 OF THIS INTERVIEW, CLICK HERE...)

Darren King: Brian, I wanted to touch base a little about Everything Must Change and the tour that supported it. What was your overall impression of the tour? Was it what you expected? Were there some surprises? How has it gone in your opinion?

Brian McLaren: It has been such a rich experience that I’m still finding it a little hard to talk about. Especially this last week, we were in the Bronx and we were in the most multi-cultural and diverse context we’ve had - and it was such a rich experience.

Each city has been unique and each has been wonderful. It’s kind of like, if you advertise that you’re throwing a party for people who care about the world’s most serious crises, a really high caliber of person comes to that party. Just the quality of people has been so inspiring. I can’t even find the words for it.

Darren King: Did you notice differences regionally – in terms of what people’s concerns were? Issues they most wanted to address depending on what part of the country you were in?

Brian McLaren: Yes. For example, when you talk about the environment, and you’re in the Bronx, you know, the Bronx receives the garbage of Manhattan. So, its one of these classic examples of the poor having to live with the waste of the rich. As a result, Asthma rates are still unexplainably high in the Bronx. So, when you talk about the environment, this issue with Asthma comes up really fast there. Lead paint in your building is a big issue there. Now, that’s not an issue in a new subdivision where they haven’t used lead paint. So you see differences of that sort.

But overall, one of the surprises for me has been how many people who have come to these events who describe themselves either as ex-pastors or ex-church-goers, or even ex-Christians – who have been burned out or disillusioned somehow. And somehow, these weekends have felt like a safe place for people to begin some sort of rapprochement with their faith and with the Church. 

Darren King: I’m curious, did you find that it’s a different crowd than might show up for an Emergent conference? Because they see this as more preparing to practically address the world’s major problems, as opposed to abstract theology? Do you sense it’s a different crowd in that way?

Brian McLaren: Well, you know, part of what I think it is, is that the Emergent conversation is continuing to mature and diversify. And so, to the degree to which Emergent got a reputation as a lot of highly educated people talking about epistemology and theology, I think a lot of those people have moved on to talking about things like justice, and peace, and spiritual formation. So, I think this tour reflected an ongoing maturing of the emerging conversation.

But there have been a lot people at each of these events who have only heard of emergent in relation to me, because they’re read some of my books. They’re there because they picked up Everything Must Change in a Barnes and Noble and they wanted to meet some other people to talk about it with.

Darren King: Within American media, one certainly recognizes a much greater awareness of perils such as global warming- at least on a superficial level. But, in Eeverything Must Change, you argue that we have to go deeper than merely tweaking the mechanism of our collective existence. We need to abandon the suicide machine we’ve built our existence upon. Do you see this deeper level of awareness growing as well?

Brian McLaren: I definitely see it growing, but only in limited circles. For instance, the latest news cycle is about the rising cost of gasoline, and people seizing on the idea of a gas tax holiday as a solution to our problems. This to me is just the typical kind of fast “solution”.
Darren King: A think-no-further-than-tomorrow kind of thing.

Brian McLaren: Exactly. And then there was the naïve hope that switching to Ethanol would solve all our problems. So, I still think that on one level we don’t want to face the most inconvenient truths, which have to do with our levels of consumption, and our need for some radical change.

Now, some of that radical change is going to involve sacrifice, and it’s going to involve changes in our lifestyle. But, I think another big part of it is going to involve new investments in research and development. And new efforts into creative exploration, of different fuel alternatives, for example.

And even on that ground, we’re hearing a little more when people talk about green-jobs and that sort of thing. But, to me, the better sort of question we should be asking is: what if we’d invested all of the money we’re investing into the Iraq war in a massive dedication into finding new energy- including solar, wind, geothermal? Would we, and would the world be, in a more secure place? I think almost certainly we would be.

Darren King: And maybe we could have even done that back in the 1970’s, after the last gas crisis.

Brian McLaren: Exactly right. And this is where, I wish, when these crises arise- such as when the price of gas rises, that this could force us to look for long-term solutions. But we keep looking for short-term solutions.

For example: to me, one of the really smart proposals that was made decades ago was to create a tax on gas that would raise the cost of gasoline to be the equivalent of the cost of a renewable alternative. And then all of the money that would come in through that huge taxation would then be invested in research and development. You just realize that, if we had done that fifteen, twenty, or thirty years ago, we could be in a much, much better place today. The short-term pain would have produced a much better long-term gain.

Darren King: You mentioned Ethanol. And I think one of the things that recent developments have shown us, more than ever before, is how inter-related the world is. How, when you push on one issue, it’s going to have a side-effect somewhere else. With Ethanol, people were like “Oh, this is great… this is green… this is a naturally growing substance. But then suddenly tacos and tortillas in Mexico are sky-rocketing because of its use as a fuel source.

Brian McLaren: Yes, exactly right. And when I use that metaphor in Everything Must Change of a suicide machine… when you picture human society as a machine, one of the big questions is: how much margin do we have? We are living with very small margins. You know, in terms of fuel supplies and food supplies and medicine supplies. You know, this brings to mind one of the stories from the book of Genesis, of Joseph who had to warn Pharaoh to get seven years of food stored away because seven lean years were coming. There you have a biblical understanding of margin and caution that we desperately need today.

Darren King: Jim Wallis seems to be calling for a new centrist political effort in his new book, one that is faith-centric. How do we start an ecumenical dialog to form political action groups- without falling into the pitfalls that the conservative church got itself into- by being too closely aligned with one particular political party and the methods by which political parties rule?

Brian McLaren: That to me is one of the most important questions that we all need to be asking. I was just in a phone conversation with a friend about that very subject this morning. It’s such a good question. And part of me wants to say, “Will you call me back tomorrow and let me think about that?” Because I do think it’s a very important question.

Let me say this: I think we need to distinguish between means and ends. You can have legitimate means that are used towards unwise ends. And you can have illegitimate means that are used towards wise ends. And as we reflect on the aftermath of the Religious Right, we’ve got to scrutinize both the means and the ends.

Secondly, one of the means that we have to reject, is the means to becoming the chaplaincy to either political party, or to either a Left of Right wing ideology.

My vision is that we would have committed Christians in the Republican Party, and committed Christians in the Democratic Party, and in 3rd parties as well. And that the committed Christians in these parties would share a desire to follow the teachings of Jesus. And that they would be quick to notice the planks in their own eye. So, Republican Christians, instead of focusing on the weaknesses of Democrats, would want to call their own party to aim higher and deal with their own weaknesses, and vice versa. That kind of alliance that sees partnerships across party lines, to me, has a lot of potential. Because I don’t think anyone expects any one party to accurately, or adequately, address the range of issues that should be important to us as people of Christian faith.

Darren King: Brian, a central message of Everything Must Change is that Jesus did not simply come to offer second-phase life insurance, but also a way of living that could transform the power/control structures of the world- in the here and now, and lead to a more harmonious existence for all. To what extent do you sense that this more holistic/integrated understanding of Jesus’ message is growing amongst the American church? What about outside of America?

Brian McLaren: Well, let me go to the second half first. I sense this in powerful ways in Latin America. There’s a wonderful group called La Red del Camino. This represents a wonderful group of Latin American Christians - Catholic and Protestant - who have been working on this holistic, integral understanding of mission and faith for decades.

I sensed the same this weekend when I was in the Bronx, talking to Rev. Ray Rivera, who’s a Pentecostal - but because he’s a Latino and was born in poverty - has been wrestling with understanding a more holistic vision of the Gospel – again, for many decades now. This understanding is certainly embodied in someone like Desmond Tutu in South Africa. And so I think that globally, this vision is spreading.

Here in the United States, there are still people who are unashamedly opposed to a more integral understanding of the Gospel. They’ve defined Orthodoxy as a one-dimensional Gospel. But I think that among the younger generation that view is losing ground.

Darren King:That reminds me, I recently I heard a more conservative, Reformed theologian say “Sure, there are social implications we need to consider, but let’s not confuse that with the 'real Gospel'.” Whereas, in my thinking, that’s kind of a false dichotomy. It’s like saying the leaves of the tree aren’t part of the tree, or something like that. As opposed to a more integrated view that says it’s about the redemption of the Created Order- period.

Brian McLaren: I couldn’t agree with you more. And this is another way in which the resurgence of interest in the Ancient Practices will help us. Because, as Protestants rediscover the great historic tradition that’s held in Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, they’ll be exposed to: first of all, Catholic social teaching. Then they’ll be exposed to the Eastern Orthodox understanding of incarnation and salvation - that are profoundly integral.

To me, ultimately, the solutions that we need are there in the early centuries of the Church, and we’ve - in so many ways - lost them. I should say, many have lost them, not everybody. And some of us are just seeking to rediscover them.

Darren King: Brian, the A New Kind of Christian trilogy was recently re-released in paperback format. Many now think of the books of that trilogy as modern-day classics- books that addressed ideas that started conversations that gave birth to a movement. When you think back to when you were penning that first book of the series, did you have any idea where it would lead?

Brian McLaren: You know, it’s funny, I have thought about that because my first book came out exactly ten years ago. That book was called Church on the Other Side. And when I wrote that book I thought that I was shooting up a signal flare from a lifeboat, hoping someone would see it and I’d find out that I wasn’t alone.

Darren King: And maybe not knowing if anyone would?

Brian McLaren: Not knowing if anyone would… And sort of fearing that all I would find is criticism for even raising certain questions.

Now, when I wrote A New Kind of Christian, that book was a reflection of scores of conversations I’d been having with young pastors, and older pastors as well, and with Christians of all different stripes. So, when that book came out, I knew there was this bubble of discontent under the surface. But, I never would have suspected that, in just seven years, the seven years since A New Kind of Christian came out, that there’d be so much constructive and hopeful work being done. I probably would have guessed that deconstruction would have taken another ten or twenty years. But it feels like, while the deconstruction continues in some ways, there have been so many constructive breakthroughs.